This is basically her introduction. Poorly structured sentences and actual citations of the verses she uses at the bottom.
At this point in time she has already made me mad. She has assumed that I was born an atheist and that I had never "given god a chance."
Now she not only has assumed that I was born an atheist, but she now assumes that the only way for one to be a Christian and then become an atheist is if they have been "Hurt" by someone or that if someone has "Let them down." I actually had to stop and re-read what she wrote. I thought perhaps she meant it some other way, she couldn't possibly think that all former Christians had to go through tragedy to lose faith could she? The answer is yes. At this point I was ready to end the conversation. However I indulged her with a few more responses, and I am glad I did.
After telling her a broad reason for leaving the faith she then tells me that I wasn't a real Christian to start with. She told me that I worshiped an idea and not the real god. She seems to be very judgmental for someone who is taught by the bible to not judge people. How could she possibly know what god and Jesus meant to me when I had faith? She then quotes more scripture and more scripture to back up her judgments.
At this point I'm getting noticeably agitated at the question dodging via random bible verses and asked her to just answer my question straight up. What do you think I get? More babble! Who would've thought?
With all this bible thumping I decided to ask her a question about her beliefs. She then says that she can take some passages as literal and some as poetry or symbolism. I then ask a pretty simple question. Who gets to decide what Christians take as literal and as poetry?
Without giving her proper time to formulate a response, which seems to take a long time for her anyways, I give her a few passages that at one time were taken literally. Her husband then comes into the chat because obviously I wore her out. I can see why they are married, they both seem to have skills in babbling. He then tries to justify owning sex slaves, rather poorly might I add.
When asked directly again (it seems as if I have to do that to get a response) about what his views on the listed verses are, he then uses what every other Christian uses when confronted with the atrocities in the bible: context! I cannot believe this point is still used. Context? It clearly states that god stamped out entire cities because he had a temper tantrum, so on and so forth. He then said something that is a very touchy subject for me. The idea that everyone of us will be judged for what we do on earth. This has been a major argument for me ever since I decided to leave religion. If god is just and caring and loving how could he look down at a person like me and send them to hell? I live the exact same life as I did when I was a believer, except I do it without the fear of punishment or the prospect of reward. I treat people right, I try to do kind things to people, I show love to my wife and son, and I just try to be a decent human being. The righteous believe that I will burn in hell for doing all of that and simply disagreeing with god. This to me is absurd, and should be treated as morally deplorable. So at this point I knew I was done with the conversation and decided to say a few more sentences and then leave it be.
He leaves me with a Bob Dylan video link to youtube. That concludes one of the weirdest preachings I have had in quite some time. Ever since starting this blog I have gotten a few odd faith related e-mails however no one has done this kind of rationalizing ever. In one conversation this team of preachers has concluded that I was hurt by someone in my life, that I never was a real christian, and justifies genocide and the owning of sex slaves. It is people like this that give the decent Christians a very bad name. The point of showing everyone this is not to exploit and poke fun at Christians. It is merely to showcase exactly how hard it is to rationalize with someone who has a closed mind.
It is a argument that will last forever, yet it's getting more common than a cold. More and more people are realizing that to trust a book that has been changed and altered so many times does not reveal any truth about cristianity. More and more people are open minded towards religion yet the christian community seems to take it the hardest(understandably). I understand that they still need to fight for their believes but now it's reaching a conflicting level. Not becuase of anti fable followers who follow this blog but for religions.
ReplyDeleteDemocracy will be the main reason for all conflicts. Freedom of speach is but a starting point and emotions have never been so tested like this before. Emotion and considiration for others becomes a conflicting battle within.
I understand the argument fully, but religion needs to stop being egotistical and realise that we are not the same. Forcing themselves onto you through facebook and the occasional prayer status explains a lot about personality and the narrow mindedness of religion. Facebook for christians these days are nothing more than a street corner filled with priests.
You have a great blog here feel free to send some ruthless angered people to mine to let off some steam. Keep up the work, me and my 1 follower will read your blog with great interest :p
I am so sorry you found yourself assaulted by people who obviously don't know how to form their own opinions. I am currently in a phase in my life, where, having assessed the situation, I am finding less and less that I believe in the beliefs I was raised around. I like to think that when I'm done sorting this out, I'll be agnostic... Dunno which God I believe in, but I like the idea of God. I might turn my back on the whole institution. I find that I am less and less willing to be associated with "those" people, because I find more and more that their actions embarrass and repulse me. If THIS is what Christianity means, I will have none of it here.
ReplyDeleteI too am well versed in scripture. I find the more I read of it, the more questions I have. And mine match yours. Which should be taken literally? Did God really just "speak through a man" and tell him to tell us that slavery is acceptable? (I find less and less that "taking it in context" solves my personal sense of outrage) As a woman do I really have no right to speak my mind to a man? Should I swallow that line "God has to speak to finite people, its not supposed to ALL be literal"?
I do think you hit the nail on the head though. I've found many close-minded Christians in my search to find someone with whom I can talk about my concerns. But. I think that's it, that's the key. The open-minded Christians I know struggle JUST as much as I am. Keep your mind closed, you can follow blindly, like sheep. Its easy...
@Grumpy, thanks for the encouraging words. This blog is still an infant (only a week old) but already it has gotten somewhat popular. Thanks to everyone who was taken the time out to read it.
ReplyDeletelol, thanks for the entertaining blog post!
ReplyDelete-fellow rational thinking atheist
Firstly when I read "Jesus has been called the hound of Heaven and if he has chosen you for his own, He will not give up on you and will have His way for no other reason than he loves you for His Glory and no other reason." I don't mean to be crude but I was reminded of the quote "He puts the lotion on his skin" from Silence Of The Lambs.
ReplyDeleteSecondly why do people feel the need to pray for those of us who don't believe? Not only is it insulting and against the whole "God loves everyone" propaganda but it's a waste. Surely if there was a God then he/she or it would be better served feeding the hungry and housing the homeless than wasting time converting me. Because no amount of prayer is going to do that only action. So pray that he/she or it cures world hunger then he/she or it can pay me a visit. :D
I do agree with one thing she said though; "My believing and your not believing neither qualifies or disqualifies His existence." I actually thought that might have been the end, since it implies she agrees it doesn't matter you don't believe, but sadly that wasn't the case. Also should we point out the bible was written and edited by thousands of years of ruling parties and not God? Unless diluting the original and removing parts that were once considered sacred is what she meant... then again I "side with unbelief" so what would I know? lol
P.S. I learnt something new today when 'James, the husband', said "Christianity is a religion of relationship, not a religion of rules". All these years I thought it was full of absurd rules to make people behave while the rest of us simply behave because we should, not because the boogeyman made us do it.
2 parts—Part 1: I came across your blog while looking up the laws relating to private businesses shoving religion in the public's face and employee discrimination laws. I'm a lawyer, but that is not overly relevant. I went to a small family practice doctor Friday here in little ol' Dandridge, Tennessee because I had a wicked cold. I almost never go to the doctor, but this was a chance to connect with the local doctor that my wife really likes and has been to many times. We think he is from Egypt and I don't know what his religion is. I'm a former Mormon (32 years) before slowly migrating to Agnostic and now Atheist. So I go in the doctor's office and lying in the small waiting room is no less than 4 large bibles resting OPEN FACED on both coffee tables and two side tables. It's not a big room, so the bibles stand out prominently as the only thing to really notice in the room. There is a little magazine basket but it had just a couple of magazines in it. Then there were two pamphlet things where I think you could order bible stories for kids or something. I was immediately enraged. It was such an assault on my sensibilities. That I would go into a private business for a very personal and in fact confidential relationship with a doctor and be assaulted with open bibles shoved in my face, I got hot. Nothing about this business told me in advance I should expect to encounter anything religious.
ReplyDeleteSo after checking in as I sat down I picked up the one bible in front of me closed it and gently tossed it into the magazine basket. The only lady sitting there with her kids thought about reacting I could tell, but I looked her right in the eyes inviting even the slightest reaction or comment. She stifled herself quickly and was taken in the waiting room so I didn't have to mercilessly chew her up. In the room alone, I went around and picked up all four bibles and put them in the magazine basket under other magazines. By the way, bibles in the magazine rack would be fine with me, but bibles to the exclusion of everything else laid out open faced is absolutely out of line in my book. I would love to do an experiment to see how many people in that office would actually choose to take the bible out of the magazine basket and read it while waiting. My guess--almost none--maybe only the most self righteous religious prick on the planet who wanted to have a do-good moment in front of others would do it. I mean, how much do you have to read that fucking book? You read it every Sunday and often in between. Like you really need to use the doctor's office to read again a book you've read a hundred fucking times? Really? I don't apologize for my attitude. I don't think I'm being petty. I know that only a fool gets offended. So call me a fool on this one. I'm not from the South and it is making me sick, really. You can't go to a buffet, a concert, a water park, a theme park, a doctor, or whatever, without some goddamn christianity shoved in your face. So the context of my strong (possibly over) reaction is that I am up to my gills with religious line crossing everywhere I turn here in the taliban-like christian south.
2 parts—Part 2: Even though this guy is my wife's friend now and I want to be his friend (no chance of that any more after my terrible first impression as describe below), and even though he is possibly not even Christian being from Egypt (which would actually make me have less respect for him for putting up with the blatant Christianity being shoved in patron's faces), I figured well, this doctor is as far to the top of the food chain as could be for me to lodge my complaint. So after a while in the session, I said basically, hey, I have to register a very strong objection to you guys putting no less than four open faced bibles in the waiting room--you simply cannot assume that everyone is a jesus freak. He jumped right in with an aggravated response throwing up his hands and dismissively said I just work here it's not my problem (uh, yes it is, you as an employee do not have to tolerate proselytizing like that if you don't like it, and if you do like it, you are clearly smart enough to realize that blatant proselytizing in customer's faces is not kosher in this context--a non-religious organization offering private confidential services/relationships). Then I said well, look man, I came here for medical help, not spiritual help, and I simply do not as a matter of personal policy patronize businesses who think it is okay to shove their religion in my face and I definitely do not give my money to anyone who advertises using the jesus fish. I find it highly inappropriate. You've got bibles opened it seems to specific sections no less. It is highly inappropriate.
ReplyDeleteHe tried to continue with the exam and when it came to follow up appointments I said, man, my wife likes you, I like you, but I'm simply not going to ever come back to you again, and you know why. I'm sorry. He seemed incensed and offended at my outburst but it could have been more due to the fact that I did a monumentally bad first impression to someone who knows my wife. I've thought about apologizing to him in a letter and I've wrestled with my feelings of guilt and shame for acting the way I did to him and for maybe being petty for moving the bibles. But then I always conclude, it seems, with No! Fuck you, man! You took the risk of alienating your customers, and this is what you get. Someone shoving what you shoved in my face right back into yours. But I also think the experience was so traumatizing to me and the doctor that I will probably just control my temper on the issue in the future by closing my mouth and trying to ignore it. All I can say is, I'll try.
At the very least, your blog gave me probably my one opportunity to vent, because my wife simply got pissed at me for being such a dick!